Unleashed Books: “War & Punishment” / Mikhail Zygar
From one of Russia’s most distinguished, now sadly dissident, journalists and thinkers, forced into exile in Berlin where we spoke with him via zoom on the cusp of the appearance of his new book
This is the first episode of a new feature from Andelman Unleashed that will explore compelling new works in English or French and especially their authors—their motivations, their hopes, their dreams.
This debut of the series is free to all subscribers. Eventually, we hope it will attract a substantial audience to our (lightly) paid tiers that will also help support all the work that goes into Andelman Unleashed each week.
Mikhail Zygar, War and Punishment: Putin, Zelensky, and the Path to Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine (Scribner: July 25, 2023)
It is a very long and utterly riveting path—sad, though scintillating—this uplifting history that Mikhail Zygar paints so vividly, transporting us back a millennium or more before the first Russian armour crossed the frontier into Ukraine on February 24, 2022. It is a path filled with compelling characters, Byzantine politics, and diplomacy that help set in stark relief the lead up to the violence that Russia’s latter-day tsar, Vladimir Putin, has unleashed. At one time, the vast territory of Ukraine, still larger in area than any European nation, dominated the entire region. The city of Kyiv was a thriving metropolis, capital of the mighty medieval Kyivan Rus beginning in the year 879, when Moscow was just a primitive stopover for East Slavic tribes on Volga trading routes.
But the saddest element of this tragic tale is the lengths to which a succession of Russian leaders has gone to repress, milk, at times even starve or beat into submission the Ukrainian people and their nation over the course of centuries—only accelerating with the arrival of the Soviet Union a century ago.
Mikhail’s own saga, the back story for this work, is itself compelling and tragic. After a long career as a foreign correspondent, covering wars and revolutions across the Middle East and Africa, in 2010 Mikhail joined with entrepreneur Natalia Sindeyeva to launch Russia’s first truly independent television news channel. Mikhail was its editor-in-chief when we visited him in the lavish studios and headquarter of Dozhd—TV Rain.
The good times did not last long. By 2013, having sided openly with Alexei Navalny, Vladimir Putin’s political nemesis, a campaign had begun against the channel, its advertising support drying up, eventually its signal banned from a host of cable satellite networks. By August 2021, Putin added Dozhd to a list of “foreign agents.”
But Mikhail had long since left, producing the first of a series of books—All the Kremlin's Men: Inside the Court of Vladimir Putin, described as the most important wok on the metamorphoses of Putin and his inner circle. He became a vocal presence in Russian journalist circles, awarded the prestigious International Press Freedom Award of the Committee to Protect Journalists. But when Russia invaded Ukraine, Mikhail could contain himself no further. He launched an online petition on Facebook condemning the war that went, overnight from signatures of a few close friends to millions. Mikhail had a target on his back. Three days later, he received a call. “They are coming for you in two hours.” Mikhail grabbed the only available flight—to Dubai, then quickly onward to Berlin where he completed this masterpiece, which will be launched in the United States July 25—one week from today!
But let’s let him tell us all in his own words….
ANDELMAN UNLEASHED: What moved you to write this book in the first place?
MIKHAIL ZYGAR: It was the war. The beginning of the war changed, actually, everything. The beginning of the war meant that we could not go on in the same way as as we used to do. Even though I was working as an independent, an anti-Putin journalist for all of my life, I've never had any other job apart from being a journalist. I was running the independent TV station. I've spent all of my life in a way fighting against the authoritarian regime in Russia. But still the moment when that kind of war was possible meant that it was all in vain and everything I did was not enough. Although we were trying to convince ourselves that we were prevailing, everything we have done was not effective and we were wrong. We were to blame for everything. So my initial idea was to revise and to reconsider everything that was written before—to have a fresh look at Russian history that is being used by Putin as the justification of the war, the basis of his ideology.
ANDELMAN: Your narrative of the roots of this war seemed to go back far deeper than the hubris or the excesses of the Putin presidency. It seems to go way back.
ZYGAR: Absolutely. You know that's why it was very easy for Putin to put into use all those ideologies because all his rhetoric is deeply rooted in long time Russian historical tradition. The tradition of imperialistic Russian historical narrative is very, very long and it has never been rejected. It has never ceased to exist. So even after the collapse of the Soviet Union, nostalgia for the great empire and nostalgia for that Imperial might that was lost was really huge. Then that ideology, that nostalgia brought Putin to power and took him to the position where he is now. So my goal was to address the core issues of the Russian empire and those imperial values which are still alive.
ANDELMAN: So how far back does this whole story between Russia and Ukraine go? Was there ever, any friendship between Russia and Ukraine?
ZYGAR: Ukraine has had a long history of independence.
ANDELMAN: During that time, during that period of independence, was there hostility between Ukraine and Russia, even centuries ago?
ZYGAR: I start my book with the 17th century. That is a pretty long time ago because that's actually the beginning of the story. That's the moment when the myth was created that basically, there were no Ukrainians, no Russians, but there was one nation comprising all Slavic nations.
At that time Ukraine was a part of a Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. That was a much more democratic state than tsarist Russia. But at the same time, Lithuania and Poland were Catholics, and Ukrainians were Orthodox. So that was also the beginning of a religious war between the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and the tsardom of Russia. And the military leaders of Ukraine then considered Russia to be a more reliable partner, so they signed a contract. But they soon understood that actual protection from Russia was not guaranteed and did not fulfill their wishes. So they tore up that contract. But there was a bit different view for the Tsar of Moscow. The Russians did not consider that [document] to be a contract, they considered that to be a pledge, so they considered the Ukrainians to be traitors, and that was the beginning of the long story of accusations of betrayal between Russia and Ukraine.
ANDELMAN: So were the roots religious, linguistic, diplomatic, geographic?
ZYGAR: There was the same religion. The languages are pretty similar. They’re not the same language, but if two people are speaking Russian and Ukrainian, they can understand each other, although they will definitely know that these are two different languages. But over the centuries, people who pretended to be the cultural elite of the Russian empire started saying that there is only the great Russian language and Ukrainian is a deviation of the Russian language, the southern peasant dialect of the Russian language. And that is actually not true.
ANDELMAN: But perhaps the Ukrainians feel their language superior to the Russians’?
ZYGAR: Yeah absolutely they do. Unfortunately during the time when Ukraine was a part of the empire, a lot of talented Ukrainians had every possibility to become part of Russia, militarily, bureaucratically—all the routes were open. The only thing they needed was do was go to St. Petersburg and to speak Russian.
So, the numbers of Russified Ukrainians were great, and the prime ministers, the chancellors, the ministers, in the 18th century, 19th century of the Russian empire were people from Ukraine, but they were 100% Russified. They spoke perfect Russian. Now, at this time, there was the name Ukraine and another name [for the same region] Little Russia. Actually Little Russia is not a diminutive but actually means the core of historical Russia while Greater Russia is like like central London versus greater London. Actually the center of Russia is Little Russia. But in the course of several centuries, that historical meaning has vanished.
1864
Today, Little Russia sounds a bit insulting and diminishing to most Ukrainians. So now, Ukrainians today, call Little Russians, all those Russified Ukrainians who are a bit ashamed of their Ukrainian background. The activists of the civil rights movements in the United States in the 1960s were calling those black people who were not fighting racism in America Uncle Toms. Little Russians for Ukrainians today are those Ukrainians who are not fighting Russian imperialism.
ANDELMAN: So it almost seems as though, in some respects Ukraine rather than Russia should be the dominant force—historically, culturally, ethnically?
ZYGAR: It's hard to tell who should be the dominant nation. We remember that the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan was the greatest empire of its time. That empire existed on the territory of today's Russia and its capital was located not far from today's Russian city of Astrakhan. So probably that should have been the predecessor of the Russian empire. We also know that until the 18th century and the period of Catherine the Great, the Crimean Peninsula was a state that was ruled by the descendants of Genghis Khan. And for centuries Russian tsars, as well as Grand Dukes of Poland and Lithuania, were paying court to Crimea, not vice versa. So maybe Crimea should have become the center of the empire.
ANDELMAN: So does this mean if Ukraine clearly wins this war is it going to become a much more significant force in Europe perhaps even than Russia?
ZYGAR: I think that culturally and politically, Ukraine is winning this war, and I see no way anyone can can take this from Ukrainians. So they have already proved that their culture, their civilization, their history have the right to exist, and that Ukraine is not Russia. It is another significant center of energy and power and attraction for eastern Europe. So this changes everything. And like back in the 19th century, when Russian liberals were dreaming of overthrowing the Russian emperor and creating some more democratic federation of Slavic states in Eastern Europe, they had a project that was some kind of United States of Slavic countries with the capital Kyiv. Russia should have been a part of that imaginary democratic state. So everything is possible.
ANDELMAN: I am especially taken with Zelensky's background as an actor. I've watched some episodes of his show when, by a fluke, as a high school history teacher, he became the president of Ukraine. I have this impression, sometimes, that even today he is playing perhaps the role of his life. So, do you think this acting career prepared him for this new and existential role?
ZYGAR: I am sure, 100% that that he has done everything that he has done only because he was preparing himself for that role.
If you're just a politician, you can be weak, you can be mean, you can lie, you can be corrupted because you have an illusion that there is a moment when nobody's watching. You've got the illusion that you can conceal something—that the audience could be fooled. That’s something Zelinsky did not ever have because he had that feeling of being filmed and watched, of being a character in a series. He knew that he should be the best in his role. He cannot let the audience down. He knew that he was being watched every single moment, every second of his life. So he played different leaders, he played different roles, he played Napoleon defeated by Russian troops.
He knew that he could not afford to be a pathetic leader, he should be only a heroic leader because that is real life, that's not a rehearsal. There's not going to be another show. He knows if he fails today, that's the end of the show. I think that attitude, that feeling of transparency that he took from his experience as a stand-up comedian and an actor and his extensive experience of playing different characters may have created that unique mixture of a person who knows exactly what it means to be a hero.
ANDELMAN: Tell us how your personal story might have framed this work, the context of it, influence you when you were writing? The last year has been very difficult. You’ve been effectively a dissident, you were forced from your country. You may never be able to go back. Until you left, you really were unable to acknowledge your husband. There were so many things about your personal story that it seems to me really framed the book that you've written.
ZYGAR: Yes, you may be right. One more important thing is that for almost 10 years, I'd been working as a war correspondent, covering a lot of different conflicts, revolutions. Ukraine was very important for Russian independent media because it was always seen as the role model for a potential Russia, and every single Ukrainian democratic revolution has always been most important for Russia. So I was covering everything that was happening in Ukraine for many years. I've interviewed every Ukrainian president from the first—Leonid Kravchuk.
So for me, everything that was happening in Ukraine was very important, very close. And I know all those people. Everything that was happening in Ukraine was happening to me. I have always been inside, in Kyiv. A lot of Ukrainian journalists, a lot of heroes of Ukrainian revolutions are my personal friends. So I'm not just a bystander. I'm not just an impartial journalist who can watch from a distance. I've always been there. I've spent months in Boutcha, the place that that is now a symbol of that terrible massacre, terrible war crimes committed by the Russian army. It's all a very personal story. I could not help writing this book, though actually I started writing it one year before the war started. So in 2021, coming to Kyiv, talking to people, meeting President Zelensky for the first time, I realized that Ukraine has changed so much that it has become a phenomenon. It's obvious that the point of no return has passed. Ukraine has changed several generations of politicians, so it's not a Soviet country anymore. It's not an authoritarian country anymore. It's a new type of democratic country. The change has been so dramatic. So I felt like I must write a book.
ANDELMAN: You had a sense this war was coming at that time, right? Did it seem inevitable to you?
ZYGAR: I knew Putin would not stop. We all expected that something was going to happen. But no one expected the full-scale aggression—not Zelenski, not the brightest Ukrainian politicians and experts, not Ukrainian businessmen, not the people of Russia, businessman, diplomats. Unfortunately, we knew a war was inevitable, we but we could never imagine this level of tragedy.
ANDELMAN: So, tell me, you're a Russian by origin. Can an ethnic Russian, really understand what motivates a Ukrainian, what motivates him to give his life for his country? And how a Russian can be similarly motivated to fight for a country that is simply trying to take over a neighbor and not defend his homeland as a Ukrainian is.
ZYGAR: It's not about being Russian. It's about being brainwashed. Brainwashed people in Russia started believing that Russia was not an aggressor but was a victim. Because that's something Russian propaganda continued saying—that Russia was attacked by the West. And that NATO approaching Russia was always a threat, and that Russia has always been an enemy of the West which wants to destroy Russia.
Unfortunately, I must say that traveling around the world, we see there are a lot of brainwashed people. Conspiracy theories could be popular. Putin is popular in Latin America and in Africa and in some Asian countries as well, in the Middle East, in Turkey. For many people, he wrongly symbolizes the fighter against the new West or against Western values, or against liberal values. And that's terrible actually—all those lies and propaganda and manipulation of history. I think that's much more dangerous than just a terrible war between Russia and Ukraine.
ANDELMAN: So you're a trained, professional observer, take out your crystal ball. How does this end? What do you see as the the denouement?
ZYGAR: I think there is only one end. It's going to be over the moment Putin is dead. Unfortunately for him, there is no way out of this war, and actually he wants it to continue. It’s his reputation. He's doomed to continue it, and he has no way out. For everyone else in the Kremlin, it's obvious that it's better to end this war. Only those who don't have anything can hope for war as the only outcome, or the source of new income. All the Russian political elite, they are not soldiers of fortune. They are all oligarchs. Even Yevgeny Prigozhin, the person who was considered to be more radical a warrior and more ultranationalistic a fighter, he is himself a very rich oligarch. His rhetoric was not only militaristic, he was much more fascist than Putin himself. But he ended up speaking out against Putin's bureaucracy, against corruption, and against the Russian state being ineffective.
So even Prigozhin's rhetoric, the rhetoric of the man who symbolizes this war was actually finally anti-war and anti-corruption. So it would be impossible for any other politician or any successor of Putin to continue this war because it's much more beneficial for everyone to find a way out—except for Putin.
ANDELMAN: I've talked with people close to Zelensky, including his ambassador to the United States, who see the only victory to be reclaiming all territory, including Crimea, seized by Russia.
ZYGAR: Yes. Absolutely.
ANDELMAN: So what is your next book?
ZYGAR: I hope it's going to be rather soon because I've been writing it for almost five years already. And that is a book about the collapse of the Soviet Union. Several years ago, I was criticized by my colleagues who said who cares about the collapse of the Soviet Union? Why did you take that story from the past? I claim that it's not the past, it's the future actually. The collapse of the Soviet Union hasn't ended yet. It's not over. I'm writing about something that is still unraveling.
ANDELMAN: Its perhaps the collapse of the Soviet Empire rather than the Soviet Union?
ZYGAR: Yes, absolutely. For many years we were saying that thanks to Gorbachev and Yeltsin the collapse of the Soviet Empire was bloodless, and actually we were wrong. It was bloodless at that time, but after all we see the terrible outcome of that collapse seems hardly to be bloodless.
ANDELMAN: Well, for now have this wonderful book and it deserves to have a huge success. Thank you for joining Unleashed Books.
Zygar, he missed the truth so many times, and in so many threads that sometimes words were missing, unbelievable! Although when it comes to politics or corporations, there are always lies.
Plus interesting thread in general... i will read it all step by step...
Agree, very important read to understand all players and states; Russia, Ukraine, Putin, Zelenskyy, Prighozin. Have maintained ongoing interest in Alexei Navalny throughout his leading the opposition to Putin, being poisoned, now incarcerated in remote hellish place, likely declining in health in still young age. His wife it seems continues to operate the resistance for him. I cry for him. He only returned to Russia after recovering from nerve poisoning for love of country and desire to effect change regardless of consequences. He was Putin’s most effective opposition and beloved by the Russian people. His release and survival likely only possible with Putin’s death. A great leader he could be for Russia. But he must survive longer than Putin. Can only wonder as to his current health and potential leadership given the treatment or lack of same he has received. 🥲🥲🥲